The “Warning Light” Stage of Life | What No One Tells You About Getting Older.

Stefan Lindberg-Jones (00:01) Raymond, welcome to this podcast. Thank you for joining me. And we've had conversations outside of this podcast and we just continue, but we're going to be more focused on this conversation. Otherwise, could go here, there and everywhere and we could cover everything. Raymond Lavine (00:21) Stefan, I promise I will not get off topic unless I get off topic. Unless you get off topic. Fair enough? Stefan Lindberg-Jones (00:26) Well you are the topic so if I feel that you are taking us down a path that isn't relevant then I'll have to pull you back. Raymond Lavine (00:35) I think that's a good, think, Stefan, I think that's a wonderful idea. I approve. I advocate that. Go ahead. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (00:42) Good man. So my first question, always with all my guests, well, I've had two before you, because this is brand new in regards to what I'm doing, apart from my TikTok lives, is where are you now? Where are you now in regards to your life journey? Raymond Lavine (01:02) Well, let me just also for your audience, I live in Washington state, not Washington, D.C., but Washington state, which is the Pacific Northwest. And what is my, you know, in my life journey has been, you know, I've been in financial services and I'm, you know, I'm at the warning light stage of my life. I'm in my seventies and my area. And so I've been in financial services. I've been a property manager. But one way or another, it's dealing with finance or insurance or helping people with their financial lives. And the last decade and a half, I've been focused and involved and advocated caregiving plans for people so that when they need a care, you know, caregiving, that they have the funds so they can make decisions about their caregiving. So that's my life in 15 seconds. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (01:54) Yeah, no, but where are you now? What? All right. You said, I love what you said. You said you're in the warning light stage of your life. Raymond Lavine (02:03) I'm probably nearing the warning lights. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (02:06) What does that mean? What is the warning light? Raymond Lavine (02:09) Well, what I mean by that is, people, you know, they'll say, well, you're your seventies, but you're 70 young or, know, they give sort of these euphemistic, oh, you look so good. Well, Stefan Lindberg-Jones (02:20) Mm-hmm. Raymond Lavine (02:21) looking good is one thing, but most people eventually you transition from an active lifestyle, things you're doing yourself to that you're going to need, you know, more assistance in your life, more help. I'll give you, I'll give you an immediate example. A couple of days ago, I... Well, when you're in your 70s in Washington state, it used to be that you could renew your driver's license online and you'd have to take a test, just pay the fee. But now I had to actually go in person to the Department of Motor Vehicles. And that was also an ordeal too, to even get the appointment. But the point is that the person said, you want six years or eight years? And so what's the difference? And obviously you could say two years, it had to do with, if I wanted to spend more, wanted to do the eight years. And I said, I'll do the eight years because, I don't know, maybe I'll be here. Maybe I won't. the other thing that came to mind is that at some point, what happens if I'm not able to drive? Because unless I live, you know, in a, in the city or someplace that had, you know, I could either walk or I have public transportation. Most people in America, you need transportation. Now, you can get Lyft and Uber. However, it's not spontaneous. I can't go to my car and get in. I then have to have, you know, have to wait for somebody. And that in Stefan Lindberg-Jones (03:49) Mm. Raymond Lavine (03:49) a way is, you know, is also caregiving. for some reason you can't drive or you can't because of vision or medications or things, you can't drive, that's gonna make you feel very vulnerable because you can't go. go places. So what that means to me and where I'm going with this story is that at some point I'm going to have to depend on somebody else to take me places. And if I had that set up, if I thought about it, mean, I can have my wife or my daughter do it, but maybe they may not be available when I'm available or there may be some other situation or there are people that are just on their own. This is one of the main things that happens is if you If something major changes in your life, driving, what are you gonna do? What's your backup plan? Now, maybe I'll get lucky. And I've said this before and it's sort of humorous, you know, could be, is it, if I live long enough that they have self-driving cars, then you know, then I don't care, you know. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (04:55) That's what I'm thinking about is by the time I reach your age, hopefully they will have self-driving cars where you can literally on your phone, yeah, I need to be picked up and take me to this destination or have something that I can just literally get in and it will take me. Come on, it's got to happen. It's got to happen, surely. Raymond Lavine (05:17) It'll happen, but I don't know if it'll be in my lifetime. Look, I just bought an electric vehicle and I sort of understood or I suspected that I might have issues with it and my suspect has been realized is that I had to get a technician to come out that spent two and a half hours you know, updating my electric vehicle because it wasn't opening. And then when I put it in park, then even with my key fob, I couldn't get it to start. And that's concerning to me. If you can't get in your car and it's cold Stefan Lindberg-Jones (06:03) Yeah. Raymond Lavine (06:03) or, you you could put your key in and you could do something, but this was, there is no key. It's electronic. And so a lot of things weren't connected. You know, what's happened is that, you know, our lives are have shifted from manual or analog to digital and phones. I mean, a couple of weeks ago, my phone got blocked and I panicked because if I wanted to get a coat, if I wanted to get anything, there was no way that I was helpless and vulnerable. I. Fortunately, the store was open, so I went and they solved some of the problem. But this is how quickly you can go from self-reliance to being vulnerable or, Houston, I have a real problem here. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (07:02) Yeah. And what came up for me while you were talking was the fact that here's someone that perhaps been on that journey of giving plans out for the elderly and now you're walking the walk. Before you were talking the talk and helping people, but now you're actually in it. How does that feel? Raymond Lavine (07:29) I hope it feels better because I can tell these stories to help, to get people to tell their stories. One of the things that happens, you people don't like salespeople or they think they don't like salespeople. Why? Because they think that all we're trying to do is manipulate them and get them to, you know, spend their money. And that is a selling take, you know, where you do it a different way. And I think we had a conversation about this before. is that I become very involved in negotiating study and negotiating techniques, specifically with the Black Swan Group, headed by Chris Voss, who wrote a book called Never Split the Difference. And that's changed my thinking where, know, where I'm fine to tell my story, but I'm not trying to relate to you. What I want to do is to get you to understand you the individual, you the family, you the company, that there are issues that you have, you know, that you need to understand about caregiving. It is going to happen. Death is going to happen. That's a certainty. But there are a lot of other things that go on in your life. And the other thing that is misunderstanding, and I'll tell you, I believed it too for a long time, is that initially when these plans came out, they were called nursing home, people labeled it nursing home insurance. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (08:53) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (08:54) It's now expanded where most caregiving is usually done at home or for long periods of time. And then people say, yeah, they were at the care center. They were at the assisted living for two years. Yeah, but they might've been six or eight years at home or gradually needing caregiving. So that's why I advocate is that I've been through this journey myself and I know the issues and I've been personally vulnerable and exposed in this. is to say that in your life journey, no matter what age, you need a plan and you need to test that plan to say, if this happens, how is this going to work out? there are a lot of, it isn't always the big things that you need to do. It's a lot of little things. What do I mean by little things? Little things are, learn how to save money, learn something about investing, learn about what kind of insurance. Learn about negotiating. I mean, that's a really good skill to know besides reading and arithmetic and all, is learn how to negotiate. It's not learning how to quibble and how to haggle and how to yell and scream. You need to learn how to negotiate because it'll affect everything that you do in your life. Why? When you go for a job, there are two main issues. How much money are you gonna pay me in negotiation or I mean benefits? But it's much more than that because you need to ask, how is it that I can contribute to this company so that I can be involved in decisions and planning that will affect the company? That's a really good question because that's, lets somebody know that you're really in the game, that you're really interested. It isn't just how much, what are you gonna pay me for something to do? Uh, but there are a lot of little things too. mean, uh, if I go off topic on it, one of the things that, sometimes they will, uh, um, interviewers and depending what level you are in your career, they will test you with little things like they'll take you to lunch or they'll take you out to a sporting event or something. And, and, and it isn't that this, uh, um, the, the scene they're testing you to see what's your behavior. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (11:16) Mm. Raymond Lavine (11:17) How do you deal with people if, sometimes they'll do it. They'll order something or a drink or a meal and they'll see how you behave. if you know, they are the usual things that, know, on the golf course, but they'll say, what's your, what's your mental health about this? Do you lose composure? Do you yell at people or you calm, you know, how do you treat people? And it's a great test to say, if we're going to have you in this company and you're going to lose your temper or you're going to be rude and disrespectful to people. We're not going to hire you. I mean, there are little tests too. Sometimes they'll ask the receptionist, if they still have a live receptionist, they'll ask them, when the person came in, how were you treated? And so these are a lot of life tests and negotiating skills that if you learn them, this will get you traction in your life. Not only personally, because you know, They always say also about selling. People say, well, I'm not a salesperson. You're not a salesperson. If you have a relationship, if you have children, if if if if if you're at the airport, trust me, you're negotiating yourself, you know, you're selling or people are asking you for things. You you are in a negotiation. You are selling yourself or you want somebody to do something for you. How are you going to do it? Stefan Lindberg-Jones (12:42) Absolutely. No, I what you said is beautiful in regards to how people show up and what they're looking for, what employers are looking for. They're not just you showing up, you answering a few questions and then walking away is that you have to show up with that full energy, that curiosity, that willingness to be part of a team that that to show them that you've done the research, that you are interested in the company and what they're about and what else you can offer. So when they're sitting down, they're like, you stand out in a way that others aren't showing up. And what you just said, they're looking at everything. It's not just whether you can reel off a few key words and then go, yeah, he knows what he's talking about. yeah, we got to hire him. No, they're looking for so much more. They're looking at... the team that we have, how will he fit in with the team that we've already got? Will he add value to that team rather than just, because he's got the right information, he might not be able to communicate in the right way just because he's putting across the right information. So what I want, what I want to, while you were talking, what I want to do now, because you kind of revealed of where you're standing now is what have you learned? on your own journey. Raymond Lavine (14:12) What if I learned in my own journey? Do you have some examples of what you think? Stefan Lindberg-Jones (14:16) Well, what key things have you gone, you know what, either I wish I knew back then and you've learned something and you've taken that on your journey or you went through something and that gave you the wisdom to go, you know what, I will share this or I will use this moving forward. Anything that stands out for you. Raymond Lavine (14:41) Let me just give you four things that I would suggest to other people and I'll go into things that I've learned. Because some of what I'm going to say is also things that I needed to learn or didn't know. Young people need to know something about investing and saving. need to know, not in economics, but how do you save? How do you invest? Because think of yourself as a business. And how are you going to organize your life that you can be self-sustaining? And so you need to learn and get in the habit of learning how to invest and taking courses or YouTube or community college courses or hire wealth or financial advisors once you've accumulated enough that can help you with your assets. The other is that people need to learn and be better informed how to buy insurance because insurance is important. because it transfers risks and it does a lot of really good things. People don't always think it is because if the insurance company doesn't pay or you buy something and they say, well, it doesn't cover that, and people are annoyed and say, well, I'll never buy that or they're all terrible. So you need to learn about how to buy insurance, what insurance does, what it doesn't do. And... And also about banking, how to open up a bank account and checking account. another area, and this what we haven't talked, is that as early as you can, and this is where I really regret, and I told Chris Foss when I was in an interview with him, that I wish I had known in my teens and 20s how to negotiate the tools of negotiating, because I've made you know, some severe mistakes where, you know, I just would pop off or I would write a, uh, Chris and I, we didn't have internet and, and, and tech, so I'd write a letter, uh, and I'd be, I'd be, I'd be upset and I'd say exactly what I thought. And that, uh, uh, that was, that was not helpful to me. I mean, it was helpful that I wrote the letter, you know, there's a story, Harry Truman, um, uh, would write letters or write notes. and then put it in his desk drawer. And Stefan Lindberg-Jones (17:08) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (17:09) then he, but then he wouldn't send it, but it would allow him to, you know, write out his feelings and just get out his emotions. One time he did do that where a critic, music critic was not kind to his daughter. She wanted to be an opera singer. So he wrote a, an inappropriate letter and that did not help his image. I mean, he was annoyed, was being a parent to his daughter, Margaret, and he was expressing his support and feeling of love for Margaret, but politically it was not good. It just shows that he lost his composure, he lost his temper. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (17:57) Well yeah so that that was four pointers that you've learned or that you that you can give but what about you personally? Raymond Lavine (18:11) Well, personally, I mean, look, I've made financial mistakes. I've invested in things that didn't turn out well. I've trusted people that weren't always honorable. You buy things, you try things, you rely on things, and sometimes it doesn't work out. And so some of it is also that you just need to have resilience. And it may be hard to say, well, I get over it or move on. But sometimes you need a mourning period in order to build some resilience. However, at some point, you have to leave that behind. You have to not be angry about it. It happened. It's annoying. It's disappointing. go through that grief period. Go through those moments. And also, look at this. It isn't inappropriate to talk to your loved ones and say, look, I've gone through this, I did this, and I'm really disappointed about that. It's not just, I'm being honest. It's I'm being sincere. I want you to understand that I've done things and I'm disappointed about it. Or to see a mental health professional. whether it's you want it faith-based or whether you want it, say, a psychiatrist or a psychologist. I've said for years, Americans need a lot of mental health and they need to be talking to people because we're all living in a 21st century of a lot of stress, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of anxiety. And to have that conversation with people that will help you to understand you know, what's happening and to put things in perspective. You know, that's helped me. But that doesn't mean, know, I still don't get, you know, disappointed. I still don't get frustrated. I mean, last night, you know, we were at a restaurant and the noise level was so high that I am affected by, you know, high noise level. In other words, when I go to a concert, I have to wear earplugs or Stefan Lindberg-Jones (20:30) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (20:30) it affects me psychologically. and actually sometimes physically, I just, I am affected. But in American restaurants and a lot of places, people are just very loud. And I don't know why, but they are. does Stefan Lindberg-Jones (20:47) Yeah. Raymond Lavine (20:48) affect. In fact, I asked my wife, said, you know, look, it seems to be loud, know, it seems like they're having, you know, all these loud conversations. And my wife is a wise person, which is why. when I think that I have the most appropriate, you I've thought things out, I have the greatest idea, you know, it is wonderful. And then I'll go to higher authority, my wife or my daughter, and I'll say, this is what I'm thinking. And sometimes they'll say, you know, say it's the stupidest idea, or have you thought about this? And I'll say, gee, I really, hadn't thought about it that way, which, you know, then I have to, you know, rework my plan. And that's fine because I don't feel You know, then I feel understood and I don't feel Stefan Lindberg-Jones (21:35) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (21:35) embarrassed to say, you know, that they have my interest. You know, we have as a family have our best interests. We trust each other. We love each other. And we and we listen and, you know, we try our best to understand. Sometimes it isn't always at the right moment. Sometimes you have to change the moment where, know, you really understand. People think you have to do something in the moment. It's called the confrontation. I'm Stefan Lindberg-Jones (22:03) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (22:03) going to let you know now. Sometimes it is better to let people calm down, their endorphins and their emotions in order to really listen. And when I say listen, that's also overused. It isn't just listening, it's really understanding. And I'll give you an example. You say to your kid, you hear what I say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You listen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You hear what I'm doing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you ask Stefan Lindberg-Jones (22:32) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (22:33) a question like, seems that, you know, what I'm saying hasn't been understood. That's different. Now they have to give you a response. They can't give you the yeah, yeah, yeah, or, or I hear you because I want people. when I'm consulting, I want people to understand, you know, the issues involved with what I do. And, you know, that takes, you know, a practice and a skill level. And I'm not trying to manipulate people. I really am not. I mean, it may seem like I am. But if you think that, know, if you just say, well, Raymond Levine is this a salesperson, I'm gonna try to manipulate you. How am I manipulating you if I ask you a question like, you know, it seems like you're in a hurry to do this. It seems like I'm not being, you know, that this isn't what you're looking for. Because then I can find out what is it that I understand about you? What is the story that you wanna tell me? Stefan Lindberg-Jones (23:27) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (23:27) A lot of people that first talk to me, and it's human nature, I I do it myself, is to say, do I trust you? And so people will test you. mean, going back to meals or how you treat people, it's a thing of, do I trust you enough to tell you my story, how I'm feeling about something? And if they do, I have to make a decision, can I help you? It's the same when you go to the lawyer, the doctor, the accountant. your family is that they're going to ask and want information. honorable are you going to, what story are you going to tell them? Because a lot of these people and your family, they know the game. They have an understanding of who you are, just like when you go to the doctor. When I go to the... I'm my doctor for whether I'm ill or a physical, I write a memo and I don't just say, I'm feeling great. know, life is wonderful. No, I write a memo to say, here's what I think is going on my life. You know, here's my weight issues or here are the things that I'm thinking about. So I write a report and I hand it to them and I say, I'd like you to read this. And then so that, you know, I'm not here for the dental plan or I'm here because I advice about my physical health. In fact, I say to my doctor, Vincent, you want to know what your job is? Your job is to keep me alive and as healthy as possible. I I'm that blunt, but in order to do that, don't say to your lawyer, I didn't do it. Or don't say to your dentist, you I didn't brush your teeth. You know, I'll give you another one. I've been dealing with computers since the 80s. First computer we had was an Epson computer, great computer, know, floppy disk. But the point of this speed along is that if I make a change, if I do something and then I call my technical support person, I confess my sins. And what I mean by confessing my sins is said, I did this, this is what happened. that helps, it makes it faster rather than say, I didn't do anything. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (25:56) No, absolutely. Yeah. Raymond Lavine (25:59) And same with my accountant, my wealth advisor, my lawyer, my dentist. If they say, did you brush your teeth? Yes. When did you brush? I mean, it may seem, but there are ways of... as I used say in movie, we have ways of finding out. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (26:19) Mm. While you were talking, what came up in my mind is, I'm curious about that Raymond that was starting out in life. If you look back, if you were able to walk beside him now, that younger Raymond and all the different things that happened in your life. What would you, how have you seen him change over time? And was it, was it, before you tell me, was it, have you seen a change in how you've shown up for yourself, for your family and for your clients over the years, the more you kind of got used, got to know you as a, as a human being? Raymond Lavine (27:13) Well, you know, there are three personalities that, know, in the Black Swan, there's the facilitator, there's the assertive person and the accommodator. And I always thought I was, you know, an assertive because I would get, you know, I would get impatient. And I think Stefan Lindberg-Jones (27:35) Yeah. Raymond Lavine (27:35) that probably more of my personality is really accommodating. That's where most people are. There are the assertive and the analysts. But most people are accommodating. Why? Because rather than having a confrontation, they'll say, yeah, we'll go along with that. But there are different ways of how you deal with it. And I think learning negotiating skills that you learn and you get an idea of how somebody is coming at you. And that is a great... I would say that is a great skill I wish I had known early on is how to deal with people that are at me and not have a confrontation. you know, I mean, simple things like, you know, some people say, what are you doing this weekend? And, you know, you don't want to necessarily get caught up in a commitment and say, you know, what makes you ask? Or, you sometimes, you know, when everyday people ask me, how am I? What am I doing? I'll say, it seems like you have something in mind that you want to tell me. But also, do it in reverse. When you're in an interaction, say, it seems like you're having a good day. They'll tell you, yeah, it's going well. No, isn't. And those are skills that are helping me even my older age that if I'd known it younger, maybe to some, I would have handled the situation differently because I would have had the skill set. of not just to answer their question, but to understand, you know, what is it they want to know? Maybe they really don't want to know anything. And the other, you know, actually, I was thinking about that too, is that one of the subjective things that, we don't always know is we don't always know what somebody else is going through. So if somebody Stefan Lindberg-Jones (29:18) Mm-hmm. Raymond Lavine (29:19) is, you know, is doing something to me, I don't know what they're going through. Maybe they had an argument. Maybe they had having a financial issue. Maybe they were told, you know, they have, you know, 10 days to live. So you never know, you know, or people are just in a hurry. And so, you know, try to think of, you know, what's happening in somebody's other perspective to say, well, they cut me off or they did that is, you know, just to think maybe, maybe they're having an issue. And so they're so absorbed with that. They're taking it out on others that they're, that they're abrupt. So it usually isn't personal. There's something. So maybe you might, you know, that's where I'm saying, you know, did you ask, it seems like you're having some issues. You don't have to analyze it and then say, oh, nothing's wrong or yeah, I had some, you know, something happened and, you know, thanks for asking. But it isn't just how are you. So again, these Stefan Lindberg-Jones (30:20) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (30:20) are skills that, you know, make me hopefully a better person. a more understanding person and also somebody that has skills to know how to deal with life's issues. Because a lot of it isn't just that something is happening. Most of it is now what am I going to do? If my electric vehicle doesn't work, I have to figure out how am I going to solve this? So I have my phone number. It's also something too. A lot of things that we do, we have on our phone. It's all digital. And I've made a modification of that. There are certain things now I do in written form so that I don't have to look at them, you know, what's the phone number? So I keep the phone number in my car, know, saying, you know, if this doesn't work or how to adjust this, I have the phone number so that I can call them rather than, you know, to go into my file system that I may or may not be able to define. here's another, sometimes I might be so agitated and so upset that, you know, I'm going through this and I'm just not thinking straight. But if I have it in written form, say, yeah, I have, I have this paper, there's the phone number, there's the answer. So I Stefan Lindberg-Jones (31:30) Yeah. Raymond Lavine (31:31) practice redundancy. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (31:34) Well, that was going to be my final question was how are you preparing yourself as you're moving forward and how does that look for you? Raymond Lavine (31:43) Well, several ways, interesting you asked that question. One of the things that we're doing is we're going through a home refreshing and we're updating things both for home modifications. And we've made a decision that we want, no matter what happens, as long as we can to stay in our house and not go to a retirement village or something else. I'm not a retirement village material. People say that if you've been... in many different relationships or marriages, maybe examine yourself. Maybe you're really not relationship material. And I Stefan Lindberg-Jones (32:22) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (32:22) just, I know from my own behavior, I'm not a retirement village or care center material. maybe Stefan Lindberg-Jones (32:29) Ha ha ha! Raymond Lavine (32:32) it will change, but the point is that we're refreshing on it. We have home modifications so that no matter what happens that we can stay in our home and And we have sufficient support system funds to pay for caregivers to help us with things that we cannot do now and in the future. The other thing that I'm also is we're doing updating our estate plan and also I'm getting my important documents in order, both digitally and in files. and letting my family know where things are located. Because that's the worst thing that happens in a family issue. Somebody becomes ill. You don't even know what their social security number is. You don't know what Stefan Lindberg-Jones (33:19) No. Raymond Lavine (33:20) health information. mean, some basic things. But then it goes on to, I know your accounts that I can pay your bills? And it used to be, it was easy. You got the information in the mail. Now it's paperless, so do you have the passwords? Stefan Lindberg-Jones (33:36) Hmm. Raymond Lavine (33:37) So I now have a digital service that I'm updating information so that my family, I'm not able to do it, that they can go and get the passwords and they have the documents and they know where my medical information. A lot of people have, hi, here's my phone. Now, that I don't have, that I have in physical form. I have it in my wallet that I could show people. I just don't have the patience to say, well, let me look on my phone. It's just, that's just not, and a lot of people do when they're good at it and I'm not, and if it works for, but the thing is supposing you forget your phone or supposing your phone isn't working. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (34:23) Mmm. Raymond Lavine (34:25) I'm a backup person. It's just, just how, that's just how I deal with it. Because if not, gets, it's sometimes it'll give me personal anxiety if I can't, cause information, especially in this day and age is, is important. If you want to get into most sites these days, it isn't just, you can't just get into it. You got to get, you know, a, a, a, a code and it goes to your phone or it goes to your email. And then, and then it, then it can still be redundant. Hi, we've done this. Now we need more. I'll give you an example. When you call, I forgot who I was calling about some issue, and I went through this telephone tree, and I said, customer service. So I put in all this information, that information. So you put in all this information. And then when you get to the person, they ask the same information all over again. So what was Stefan Lindberg-Jones (35:20) Yeah. Raymond Lavine (35:24) the point? In some ways it was better that you could call up and get customer service and talk to somebody because some things just can't be answered, at least on the telephone tree or through artificial intelligence. Sometimes you just need to explain, I've got this issue, need, wave your magic hands, this is what I need. And sometimes they can. Now, there's another hint. Sometimes if you're talking to somebody, they're just not working with you and you think all is lost, hang up the phone, wait five minutes, call again. You'll probably get somebody else that can help you. Sometimes, you know, I would say, know, 50, 60, 70 % of the time it works. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (36:11) Beautiful. Well, thank you, Raymond. That is, we've come to the end of the show. I really appreciate your wisdom and allowing us to walk beside you and where you are now and giving us an insight into your journey up until now and how you're preparing yourself moving forward. It's beautiful. Thank you. Raymond Lavine (36:35) My pleasure, Stefan, it's been a pleasure. Stefan Lindberg-Jones (36:40) No, thank you. Thank you for giving me the time. Thank you for reaching out and let us touch base in the future. Let's walk beside you and for us to see how it is and where you're going. Raymond Lavine (36:53) Be my pleasure, Stefan Lindberg-Jones (36:55) Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you guys. Thank you for watching and I look forward to catching up with you in the next episode. Thank you very much.